Oh!

You prefer things that are plenty in the market, everybody have, on the Chinese website who sell fake have, eBay has, everybody can buy it, Christies have 100% just like mine!..stuffs like that?

But you deny to have unique, and rare stuffs that no one have a fortune to have it. Hope you could vet the high price for thing that "everybody have up to their throat".

So your wife is everybody has her, too?

Why buy fron Christie's or Sothebey's when you can get 10 similar "anitique" jade hand mirrors from eBay for only $120,000.00USD.?? At least there are no big blobs of solder and the decorative metal parts between the oval and handle are properly cleaned of the metal overflow from a mould.

LEE, you are shopping at the wrong place. Forget about those high end auction houses, check eBay out instead. Seller accepts no returns though--I wonder why?

eBay Item number: 370343770274

Subject:Re: 1900's white jade Jue shape vase
Posted By: kk <dnotspamkin888kin@yahoo.com> Mon, Mar 08, 2010 IP: 75.36.169.215

Lee,
The craving of the Yuan dragon plaque at Christies is amazing! I have seem a similar Yuen jade piece in Palace museum(?) before. I probably have a picture somewhere in my digital library. It look like they also have a good collection of Huanghuali and Zitan furniture at this sale too.

IMHO, lower temperature solder is typical for metal work round 1900's ( earlier too). Chinese used solder in in copper, brass, baitung etc. The reason probably is to reduce cost comparing to higher tem welding or one-piece casting.

**************************************
Here come another idiot!

Solder was used as glue in the Ming Dynasty for temporary stick the filigrees of cloisonne by melting lead and use chop stick to dip melted lead in the pot and then drop melted lead in the back of filigrees to stick on the body of cloisonne.

"The earliest datable cloisonne pieces being from the reign of the Xuande Emperor (1425-35) of the Ming Dynasty."

And why that Christies' Yuan plaque can be pulled out of the mirror and its handle just to take picture? Why don't they take picture of the whole piece with handle and solder blob?

**************************************

Dear Edaj
Many idiot rich people who like to spend their easy earn money on the things that auction houses pull their heads to buy, these rich people are easy to be ripped off. If these people saw similar things on eBay, they would say "woo! that one copied mine!" or it's real because "everybody has it".

Those jade stuffs in Christies are already over priced , those jades is true or fake nobody at Christies' can clarify but only "good provenance" to date all jade stuffs...what is the really truly origin? "traded with a steamed bun in Nanjing in 1937 while an old woman is running from Jap?" or "special fake from jade master in Suzhou".

I dare Lee to put what he bought back to Christies for upcoming sale, and let see their reply..."not suitable for our upcoming sale!"..and try another year...another year...another year.....the answer from them is the same.

I will never recommend any people to collect jade for investment, pls collect it only you really love this kind of stone art.

I will not buy things because my neighbors have,and I spend my husband's hard earn money with care.

Anita

Dear Edaj

Thanks for the link.

Long time no see beautiful jade on eBay, those 10 mirrors are very very breath taking beautiful, but they were made in HK in early 20th Century, possibly fine imitation of Qing jades and/or real one to make hand mirror settings. Can't say much via picture, white jade is very difficult to take pictures as well as seeing any details via pictures.

I love the cloisonne sets a lot..and there's no blobs found on any mirror handles, Lee's mirror looks rubbish compare to those 10.

Nobody will bid over US $120,000.00 per 10 for that with horrible condition below:

"BANK WIRE TRANSFER IS REQUIRED FOR THIS AUCTION!!!
No other payment methods will be accepted for this auction. Thannk you. S&H PICK UP ONLY!!!

The winning bidder is responsible for bringing his/her own boxes and packing material for the items, and his/her own crew to assist with the heavier items.
We do not ship this merchandise. Winning bidder is responsible for arranging packaging, shipping and all associated costs. You can have your own shipper handle your purchases. Please contact the shipper of your choice to arrange for pick up and packing of your items. We take no liability for the winning bidder’s selection of a shipper or the shipper’s performance. Your items will be released as soon as payment clears our bank. We request that your shipper schedules a pick up times at least 24 hours in advance; this will ensure no delays in pick up, and release of your purchases."


why didn't he go to Christies'?...because he is not famous, and no good provenance? or those mirror are not authentic? but the one that Lee has with blobs is?

It is funny that a man with no name but "Lee" walked to see Mr.Chap of Christies' HK to show him a so-called Qianlong white jade jue, and Mr. Chap said that it is of 19th Century but not suitable for our upcoming sale.(I don't know who Chap is, couldn't locate him at Christies' HK)

Auction houses business is to rip off the idiots, and the won't buy stuffs you bought from them back!

Have fun
Anita

P.S. It's amazing that Lee who bought only modern replicas dares to talk about "Han jade".

Dear Edaj

I have no idea this spinach green jade is glass or jade, I don't know they are bubbles or wax found on the surface.
You are young and have good eye sight, what do you think?

Have fun
Anita

Hi Anita,

Yes, sales conditions for the hand mirrors are harsh, to say the least. With that kind of expensive sale, money should be held in escrow until the buyer is satisfied with the goods and the seller is sure of buyer's funds. But there is a no return policy also, and that is unacceptable, to me, anyway. It's going to be a hard sell...except maybe if the seller finds a customer like LEE or kk.

Interesting HK stamp! I missed that.

As to what my young eyes see on the "jade" handle(I might be older than you Anita)--it looks very much like bubbles. Abraded bubbles, whole round bubbles and oblong bubbles. Of course, to be sure, one has to have these things in hand because pictures can sometimes be deceiving. They sure look like bubbles though.

Dear Edaj

Thanks.

************************************
Subject:Re: A Continuation of the Red Glazed Discussion
Posted By: LEE Tue, Mar 09, 2010 IP: 202.174.35.14

There is no mention of foot glaze trimming. On those reasons, the real date of my hexagon langyao vase can only be known from a TLS test.

http://www.asianart.com/phpforum/index. ... l&Id=42190

***************
Subject:Re: Cizhou Pillow - period or copy?
Posted By: LEE Tue, Mar 09, 2010 IP: 202.174.35.14

Of course there is the expensive TLS test if all are inconclusive.

http://www.asianart.com/phpforum/index. ... l&Id=42218

************************************

Lee

You are completely an idiot who loves showing off!

Not TLS test, you moron!. TLS means the Transport Layer Security protocol which is a security for communications over networks such as the Internet. Why you send ancient ceramic to test internet protocol security?

The test on thing that pass fire, it is called TL test which is a short word for Thermoluminescence dating. TL test is the determination by means of measuring the accumulated radiation dose of the time elapsed since material containing crystalline minerals was either heated (lava, ceramics) or exposed to sunlight (sediments).

Will you willing to have test done on your cheap ceramic bought on the street for a buck to do TL test for US$ 500 excluding transportation for people who come to your place to drill your stuff for sample?

Those ceramic for TL test must have market value higher than US$ 1,000 bucks, so it's worth to test...moron!

Anita

Lee and KK

You are now one in a new moderator team of AAF, or its puppeteer, you both deleted what ever posts from whomever that do not dance in the same tune of you two, good luck for AAF which is now corrupted by you.

http://www.asianart.com/phpforum/index. ... 2077#42483

Subject:Re: calcification and oxidation in jade
Posted By: LEE <leileezhang@yahoo.com> Tue, Mar 16, 2010 IP: 202.174.35.14

90% of jade pieces that have been buried for several hundred years, would have some sort of surface alteration or patina. The amount of patination would depend on rainfall. the more humid areas will have more patina. The sort of patina will depend on the minerals in the soil. Russet patina if the ground if high in iron oxide. Black patina if the ground is high in organic material and whitish patina if the area is high in calcium.

The other point on the finish of the carving. Old carving have a satin like finish because they were polish with crude abrasive, usually powdered garnets? Burial of the jade will also cause some surface alteration like micro calcification will further reduce the gloss on the surface. Modern polishing material like Aluminium oxide can create a high gloss. Such reflective high gloss pieces will date to 20th century or latter. It is safe to say that a glossy piece is modern unless the antique piece is repolished which is possible in some pieces in Western collection, where nicks and chips are polished back.




Subject:Re: calcification and oxidation in jade
Posted By: Samuel <samuelwong@artofasia.cn> Wed, Mar 17, 2010 IP: 67.159.44.51


90% of jade pieces that have been buried for several hundred years, would have some sort of surface alteration or patina. The amount of patination would depend on rainfall. the more humid areas will have more patina. The sort of patina will depend on the minerals in the soil. Russet patina if the ground if high in iron oxide. Black patina if the ground is high in organic material and whitish patina if the area is high in calcium.



-No, jade is too valuable to be buried with the dead. And majority of archaic jade were passed down to next generation.

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
The other point on the finish of the carving. Old carving have a satin like finish because they were polish with crude abrasive, usually powdered garnets?

-No. In Neolithic Period the stone mortar was used for grinding millet grain to make bread, and there are many holes at the mountain foot in North China where the stone floor of the hill were drilled to make mortar for grinding millets grains. That thing was applied to grind CORUNDUM (hardness 9) and quartz (hardness 7) into powder. The abrasive agent have 2 kinds, the crude one used for smoothing after jade was cut into figure, then the powder one use for shining and polishing jade. These 2 minerals are hard but crispy, and easy to break.

*garnet has hardness of 6.5-7.5 and garnet mine in China located in Fujian Province, impossible to be transported to the north to make archaic jade, but corundum and quartz are widely available in the north east.

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

Burial of the jade will also cause some surface alteration like micro calcification will further reduce the gloss on the surface. Modern polishing material like Aluminium oxide can create a high gloss. Such reflective high gloss pieces will date to 20th century or latter. It is safe to say that a glossy piece is modern unless the antique piece is repolished which is possible in some pieces in Western collection, where nicks and chips are polished back.


-Corundum is the most common naturally occurring crystalline form of aluminium oxide which were widely used to polish jade since “Neolithic Period”. And there is a legend said in the record of Sima Qian the grand historian of China said that in the spring and autumn period there was small knife/chisel that can easily cut jade as cut melon, and that knife/chisel is surly a diamond imported from the west. And diamond was crushed into powder to shine jade. Diamond was not a valuable mineral at that time. Burial jades depend upon the tombs and their environments, Shang to Han tombs are mostly 15 meters under the ground with chamber covered by timbers, fabric, stone, sand and charcoal. Some tombs were collapsed, some flooded, some don’t, and some were looted shortly after tombs were sealed. And robbers searched mostly for jade and gold. Nephrite is the toughest and tightest mineral on earth it resists to any natural toxic, acid, alkaline from the tombs and earth layers. However, modern strong chemical would corrode nephrite within a minute.

And how can you explain “glossy” polish of the Han jade burial suit, Ming plaque, and water dropper? Were they made in 20th century?

*Image copyright Gary L. Todd, used by Permission'

Lee said "native Hetian jade - whitish specks that looks like rice porridge in the material"

Lee. how you stupidly draw the line that Hetain jade must have rice pudding in it, and one that have no rice pudding is not Hetain at all, so where those pure archaic white jade in the museum are from? And no rice pudding jade that used in the Qing Dynasty is not Hetain jade, and no rice pudding jade is a bad jade, because it's not from Hetain? "JADE DEFINES PURITY, NOT RICE PUDDING YOU MORON!"


Subject:Re: Han dragon
Posted By: Claude <parisnavy@ledoux.fr> Tue, Mar 16, 2010 IP: 67.159.44.59

Mr.Lee, It's only the matter of "good" provenance, what about the origin? Auction houses out of China dating jade on "biography of owners". Auction House will not teach you how to date jade. They just train you theory that fits things they are selling to you.

If you think that jade things Christie put on a tray for you are genuine, without any doubt, and leave Chinese auction houses selling fakes jade in their own country and Chinese jade experts turned blind eyes to that, then published auction records to fool millions of Chinese and worldwide jade collectors....you meant that all antique jade in the world are fakes except what Christie has, and Chinese/Foreign Museums do not have jade like Christie has, that Christie's jade can still be genuine? Because Mr.Christie said so?

Why don't all the antique shops in the world close themselves down then put their things at Christies' sale then sit, wait and share profits?

I'm not rich, but I like Chinese antique.

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Subject:Re: rice porridge in the material
Posted By: Tommy <tommy@palaceantique.cn> Wed, Mar 17, 2010 IP: 69.175.88.90

Do they have rice pudding? There are high res pictures and show that they are cleaned and clear, no patina of any kind. The white jade belt buckle is of Ming Dynasty and it was a buried jade, displayed at Shanghai Museum.

How can you see Anita's dragon ears? The pictures is only one size, and you confirmed that authentic Han dragon must have 1 long and 1 short ears, why Han Dynasty had that idea to make their dragon with handicap appearance? How can you know that jade was dyed, by looking at blurry picture? The jade dragon ge that sold for RMB 2,395,800 that has diamond polish luster and red brown stains 100% like Anita dragon has is a fake. That Warring States jade dragon ge had passed gemological test to be all natural and passed Chinese museums experts and Chinese antique jade experts is a fake. But all things pass through Christies’ is a real deal. Mainland Chinese are very very cautious about what they bought, the authentication will never be ending at the end of auction, if the buyer show to you and to Christies and both of you said fake, you think whom the buyer should believe? a China States Authorized Auction house + Chinese museum scholars or you and Christies’?

Hetain jade Bi Disc of Han dynasty...any rice pudding and sign of age?

And the glossy luster of these 2 museum samples? a 20th century fake?

Subject:Re: archaic jade?
Posted By: LEE <leileezhang@yahoo.com> Tue, Mar 16, 2010 IP: 202.174.35.14

Artificial staining on Nephrite can be created in areas with fissures and cracks as there will absorp the stain more readily. That is why i would more careful of pieces with dark brown stained fissures, as evident n Anita's dragon.

Subject:Re: calcification and oxidation in jade
Posted By: LEE <leileezhang@yahoo.com> Tue, Mar 16, 2010 IP: 202.174.35.14

Note the artificial russet stain on this dragon group that sold for 2million yuan to the brown russet stain on Anita's water dragon and the similar brown stain on John's cup.

Lee, this is another stupid reply about brown stain, don't you notice and use your brain that John's cup is a heated bowenite. The way to fake it is to paint the iron oxide liquid that was used for coloring biscuit of low-fire ceramic, and then fire it again, or glaze it with high fire. How can you cast your idiotic opinion that 2 millions yuan jade Ge, my dragon, and john cup is from the same forgery process, hope your brain is not full of s h i t.

Subject:Re: not qualified.
Posted By: LEE <leileezhang@yahoo.com> Wed, Mar 17, 2010 IP: 118.210.194.93

Samuel,this is a photo of a Han dynasty dragon from the Beijing palace museum. Now tell me how is this similar to Anita's dragon or the 2 million Yuan dragon axe?. 1) can you note the difference in patination or do you need new glasses? 2) Can you tell me how the carving style is different, any broad disc cuts on the rib cage area like Anita's? 3) Any artificial brown staining? 4) Any high gloss polish? 5) Tail curling between the back legs that extend to the front legs? Any 2 set of ear? Tell me are the 2 similar at all?

Lee, why you are so idiot? 426 years of Han Dynasty had "ONE STYLE OF DRAGON"?

Palace Museums Beijing and Taipei jades are from Qianlong’s personal collection that has doubt. The seal of the 1st emperor who unified China which was said to be made from the legendary Bian He's jade owned by Qianlong was proved to be made from a clay with unknown bird script.

The history says that Qianlong had doubt in his Han jade cup and commanded jade artisan in Suzhou to see him and that artisan confessed that his family forged ancient jade for a career, for generations, and many pieces in Qianlong Collection are one of his family work. And that artisan was then punished by Qianlong. This is only one faker that Qianlong could caught, And Qianglong died before all the study of his ancient jade collection being completed. you know how long ancient jade were forged in Chinese History?

1)I don’t need a new glass, I’m not that old no matter how blurry picture you presented. Of course patina is difference, all ancient jade are different because of burial environment, and some are not buried at all. You can not put jade of each period and categorized how it would rot, and date them experts know that. And no aware collectors date jade through its patina, do you?

2)Carving style, form and artistic expression is the same, but craftsmanship is different, and you must understand that there was not only one workshop in the Han time that carved jade. And Han Dynasty was 426 years reign with many rich aristocrats. How can you say that one questionable Qianglong’s collection is an answer of all dragons that made within 426 years of Han period?

Cut on the rib (see cut of rhyton cup)
The curls – see jade belt hook
The style of dragon with tail under the back legs (see gold belt buckle)

3)That 2 millions jade Ge was passed lab test, and that patina is not artificial If you develop an eye, it is usually easy to spot dyed jade because of its harsh, synthetic tone. Why don’t you compare Longshan green ring of the Soltheby and Anita green dragon.


4)And why you ruled out that brown staining will never been found on Han jade? Why you date jade via its patina, alteration, permeation? Jade is not bronze or iron or wood that corrode through time.

5)The ears are damaged, how can you assume that authentic Han dragon must have 1 long ear and one short ear? and again, one questionable dragon is not the answer of dragons made in 426 years of Han Dynasty.

6)That tail was broken. And you can see the tail curled between the legs of sample from Tommy and Maertge. I have never seen Anita's dragon tails, it tugs to the front legs or not, and there's nothing wrong with that, because one can study Han Dynasty art for life but gain only 50% out of it. And again, one questionable dragon is not the answer of dragons made in 426 years of Han Dynasty.

Of course they are not similar in many ways but how can you compare one questionable sample with other artifacts from 95% tombs that looted? And draw the line that 426 years, 50 millions populations, in 1.8 million square kilometers of Han Empire must have one style of dragon.

+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
"Everybody is liable to commit errors where the field is virgin. But dictatorial positiveness of judgment based on insufficient material and facts is surely detrimental to the good cause."

Dr.Berthold Laufer (1874-1934)
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

Can you explain glossy polish at Han jade suit? And Ming plaques, water dropper and link that Nick posted…..are they FAKE?

Samuel

SAMUEL'S ABOVE REPLY WAS NOT APPROVED BY AAF'S MODERATOR.

Lee, do you think jade from Robyn Turner with high glossy polish surface are fake, and made in 20th century? of course Robyn is far more better than you who licks Christie's a s s.

Say it!

http://www.asianart.com/robynturner/index.html

1. White Jade Coiled Bi-Hsieh
Qing period (18th/19th century)
White jade with patches of russet
Length: 3 inches

http://www.asianart.com/robynturner/large/01aa.jpg

2. White Jade Dragon Fish
18th century
Length: 3 1/8 inches

http://www.asianart.com/robynturner/large/02aaa.jpg